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Was I the only one massively disappointed?


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#1 giantdonkeykongteam

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 01:38 PM

EDIT:
I just wanted to let everyone know that I have just finished preordering RMVX-Ace.

My initial impression was just that--an impression. What I saw after glancing at the maker and playing with the unofficial English translation of the trial download. I have since had a week to fully research it, experiment with the maker, and conclude that it is indeed worth the time and money.

I always said that Ace was no doubt the -best- maker, I was just disappointed with the apparent lack of evolution from VX. I see now the wealth of features and how despite appearances, it really has gone quite beyond the VX engine.

Anyways, sorry if I was a bit over-theatrical, I tend to get a little carried away when discussing RPG makers. Looking forward to the future,

GDKT


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Edited by GDKT, 01 March 2012 - 01:28 PM.


#2 Mephistox

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:00 PM

Maybe you are right, but for the people that got stuck on XP, because the VX was a downgrade from this, this new VXAce is awesome. besides from that, they remade all the scripts structure, added nice features (that weren't present in all the last makers) they arrange a lot of things that were bad, and upgraded to ruby 1.9.2, neat.

Maybe you can't some changes if you don't code, but for scripters, the structure of the scripts is nice, is just like a SDK, all reordered, easy to modify, faster and improvement on the methods like splits to avoid overrides of them, etc. Through the eyes of a scripter, the scripts are totally remade.

in short terms, the most important feature is that they took all the forgotten features from the xp and push into the vx and remade all the structure, maybe yes, all of this existed before, but now is built-in the software, a prove that they hear what the users want, maybe not in the battle system, and i must say, that the software was created for japanese people, i think they prefer the frontal battle system, or they think that creating a Sideview was bad, for the lack of graphics or the time the future users will require to draw them, remember this is a tool for begginers or just a hobby to make the work easy and fun.

And for the '3D' engine as an example, no thankyou, higher price, hard to make graphics, and i think, hard to code, ruby is easy and fast, the 3D must use another language. If you want something more powerfull there are things like XNA, even construct1 or just java or C+ plus an SDK.

The only thing that i didn't like, it was they forgot some features like fog, the rest that you listed, they are nice and well received (tilesets, caterpillar, easily configurable features for items and weapons, etc.)

PD: If we begin talking of all the new features can be make thru scripting, better enterbrain put no features at all and say to the users, "hey you can do this with scripts".

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#3 Victor Sant

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:01 PM

Yes, you was.

You're acting like i said some months ago: "when XP was relased and some functions were removed because they could be scripted, people complained. Now with ace, they brought back some features and added new features, and people complain that "they could be scripted".
It's too much contradiction for my brains x.x

Only the Traits systems by itself is enough to make this maker whole worth.

You say that many of these things could be scripted... but are you a experienced scripter that can do any of the things that you said that could be scripted? Eb! made a lot of things to make people rely less on third party scripts for simple things, and you consider it bad? So you like rely on scripters to make simple things like a caterpillar, or have to mess deeply with the scripts (a thing that most people doesn't know how to do) to make custom formulas?

But since you don't like these additions "because they could be scripted", just do your whole game with scripts, since EVERYTHING in the game can be scripted, even the events.

Anything can be scripted, so if your only excuse for not linking it is "because they could be scripted" just use XP and do everything with scripts. Since you can script everything.

Okay, there's some few things that would make it better if was added, like an better map layer management, maybe using the tiles B, C, D and E as different layer. But ace gather most of the better features from all makers, with the addition of the excellent trait system and RGSS3, with totally pwns the previous version, and a lot of good things without the need of scripting.

Edited by Victor Sant, 22 February 2012 - 02:53 PM.

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#4 giantdonkeykongteam

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:06 PM

I see you both focused heavily on the scripting issue in your responses.

That's ok, I am not saying it's -bad- they included these old scripted features as new ready-to-go features. I'm saying it's bad that the 4 year wait produced hardly anything else.

The leap from every previous enterbrain rpg maker has been very big and easy to recognize. When I use RPG Maker VX Ace--it feels like I'm using RPG Maker VX only with some small twists... because hey, I am. Even enterbrain knows this because they kept VX in the name, and pretty much used the same RTP.

#5 Kread-EX

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:17 PM

The leap between VX Ace and VX is bigger then the leap between VX and XP. Maybe not on a graphical standpoint (UI and RTP) but this is ok: XP UI is rather bad so it's a good thing they kept the same as VX. Simply put, I find it ironic that you would be disappointed with Ace, but not with VX when it came out.
I also see you mentioned the console RPG Maker and were sort of hoping the new RM would be like those. Think about it for a minute: not only these RM weren't developed by Enterbrain (only published by them) but 3D modeling and programming is a completely different level. RM target audience always has been more the casual hobbyists (even if certain people successfully go commercial with it) so the entry bar needs to stay low.

If you want very sophisticated features and 3D capabilities, there is Unity.

Edited by Kread-EX, 22 February 2012 - 02:18 PM.


#6 Mephistox

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:19 PM

I see you both focused heavily on the scripting issue in your responses.

That's ok, I am not saying it's -bad- they included these old scripted features as new ready-to-go features. I'm saying it's bad that the 4 year wait produced hardly anything else.

The leap from every previous enterbrain rpg maker has been very big and easy to recognize. When I use RPG Maker VX Ace--it feels like I'm using RPG Maker VX only with some small twists... because hey, I am. Even enterbrain knows this because they kept VX in the name, and pretty much used the same RTP.


Actually, VX is more similar to XP than VX to VXA, just give a view, and test ALL the features, don't let the RTP give the main influence.

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#7 giantdonkeykongteam

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:23 PM

I was disappointed a bit by RMVX, actually. Up until that point, the changes between RPG Makers were drastic. RMVX was the first editor that one could -argue- was a step backward. It's clear that the functionality of 2000 was better than that of 95, and that XP was better than that of 2000.

But at least RMVX offered a different style of RPG Making. It provided an entirely new UI and RTP, as well as reverting to the more traditional square/cubic designs of NES era RPGs, whereas XP clearly mimicked the SNES-PS1 era. RMVX was also heavily marketed as the best tool for beginners, and even included things like auto-events such as doors and treasure chests. The mapping and terrain were intentionally simplified to make it more accessible.

RMVX Ace, as you said, does not offer anything new in the graphics department, and simply adds features that should have been included 4 years ago, only for the price of, what is it now... $150?

Edited by giantdonkeykongteam, 22 February 2012 - 02:24 PM.


#8 BigEd781

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:28 PM

It sounds to me like you want RPG Maker to be something it has never intended to be. Ace is a great evolution to the series IMO. If you want 3D then use another maker. This is meant to provide a simple interface to make simple, 2d rpgs. If you want something else then you're using the wrong tool.
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#9 Kread-EX

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:30 PM

$90 for the English release.

This is what the Japanese audience wants man, and this is the audience Enterbrain targets. Sure, they could have added a new RTP, but it doesn't really matter that much. What's important is a more solid engine (using a better version of Ruby), cleaner and more efficient base scripts, and a lot of interesting gameplay mechanics easily incorporated via the Traits system. Also, like I said, XP UI sucked. VX had a great UI for efficient databasing and VX Ace keeps the same, but improves it. I really don't see what the problem is with that.

#10 giantdonkeykongteam

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:40 PM

I don't necessarily want it to go 3D. That was just an idea that entered my mind when imagining the brand new RPG Maker.

And you are misunderstanding me. As it stands, RPG Maker VX Ace is probably the best RPG making tool we have. It is great.
My problem is they didn't make any drastic changes that would warrant 90$. I can achieve, with minimal effort, everything I want to do using RMVX and choosing from thousands of scripts already published by users, or pay $90 to get a few of those scripts built in, and still have to use scripts made by others regardless.

Is RPG Maker VX Ace a great rpg making tool? Yes.
Is the difference between RMVX and RMVX Ace worth 4 years of waiting and $90? Not in my opinion, no.

The RTP thing is just insult to injury--the cost to hire a pixel artist(s) to create new characters and terrain compared to the net profits and scope of enterbrains company is negligible.

#11 Mephistox

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:57 PM

Simple answer, don't waste your money and download it, i've never bought a rpgmaker, i have to say so.

The people that buy it, it's because they think it worth the cost.

Edited by Mephistox, 22 February 2012 - 02:58 PM.

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#12 Touchfuzzy

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:00 PM

The RTP thing is just insult to injury--the cost to hire a pixel artist(s) to create new characters and terrain compared to the net profits and scope of enterbrains company is negligible.


You realise that it isn't just a repackaged VX RTP right? That it has a lot of added stuff? Its just the VX RTP style that remained the same. (They did carry over the VX RTP as WELL in the Ace RTP, but there is a lot more in there.)

#13 Indra

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:03 PM

As someone who basically uses the rtp alone to map, I'll say it's been improved. Sure, It's not a full RTP, but theres a HEAP of new things (and combined with the unlimited tilesets, it's a pleasure to work with). It could have been better? Sure, but I won't complain as it is. (I mean, they took stuff OUT from one engine to the next in the past, so I'm not too sure how "new engine making" works for Eb).

I never got too much into any RM before XP. In XP, I never really got too deep because...well, I had the ideas, but the program and me didn't get along very well. Later on I started developing ANYTHING for real in VX, and now, only by messing around with the ACE demo, I can say I'm in love already. Heck, now in the VX.net forums with the winter contest, having to stick to the VX program feels WEIRD after using ACE.

Is it perfect? No, but it will never be. I honestly have no idea of what ELSE you could have implemented (besides combat systems and all that jazz, and perhaps a new rtp). Sure, there may be some functions out there, but as a casual developer (and not inclided to even glance at scripts or programming if I can help it) It's a good maker.

Shuld you buy it already having VX? Can't say. If you're not convinced, simply don't. People did the same thing with the other engines when they came out. It's a commercial product, so they're looking to sell, not, I think, creating a masterpiece.
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#14 Kread-EX

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:04 PM

Is the difference between RMVX and RMVX Ace worth 4 years of waiting and $90? Not in my opinion, no.

You're of course entitled to your opinion. Just keep in mind that Enterbrain didn't pull Ace out of their asses like that. They made surveys to ask their customers what they wanted to see for the next installment beforehand. Again, their Japanese audience - their viewpoint on the matter is most likely different than ours, and they're the ones Enterbrain care about.

Anyways, in my opinion, Enterbrain really deserves my money this time. I bought without hesitation the Japanese version, for the first time. Hell, I used the PKE version of XP for years and bought it after VX came out (granted, I hadn't stable Internet connection at that time, and didn't even knew it was released in English, as 2k and 2k3 never were).

You realise that it isn't just a repackaged VX RTP right? That it has a lot of added stuff? Its just the VX RTP style that remained the same. (They did carry over the VX RTP as WELL in the Ace RTP, but there is a lot more in there.)

Also, this. If you look carefully, you'll see a lot of additional content, like emotions and behavior charsets for actors, new animations, new faces. Sure, it's less extensive of XP RTP, but still.

#15 giantdonkeykongteam

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:04 PM

Simple answer, don't waste your money and download it, i've never bought a rpgmaker, i have to say so.

The people that buy it, it's because they think it worth the cost.


That's the kind of debate that scares me. If you are closing your arguments with 'if you don't like it, don't buy it' then you are missing the point entirely. If it were that simple, there wouldn't be reviews for any products. What I am posting here is essentially my 'review' after having used the trial version and studied the new features thoroughly. My credentials are few but about as big as they come in this theatre of entertainment--more than 10 years of making RPGs and paying for all of enterbrain's products.

I'm just offering up my opinion as one of enterbrain's best clients and longest patriots.

#16 Victor Sant

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:04 PM

I can achieve, with minimal effort, everything I want to do using RMVX and choosing from thousands of scripts already published by users

Like i said, if you like to rely on third party works to acheive a result, wich generally cause a lot of issues, specially compatibility, simple don't use ace and keep with VX.

The differences on the mechanics are HUGE, you may not notice them, specially since it's look you're not the best programmet, that simply grab random scripts from other people to make your game.

Ace provides better mechanics with the same UI, so people feel more comfortable if decide to switch from VX to Ace. All the new additions are worth it. If you don't like it, too bad, but Ace surely make the biggest leap of all rpg maker. Bigger than 2003/XP, because this one had many negative changes, like the removal of many options. Ace just added.

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#17 giantdonkeykongteam

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:11 PM

Ace surely make the biggest leap of all rpg maker. Bigger than 2003/XP


Now we're just being silly =(

2003 -> XP new UI, new battle system, entirely new RTP, double resolution, scripts, additional mapping layer/functionality, new event commands, charset size limits change, etc.

The leap from 2003 to XP was massive. VX to Ace is a leap, but to say it was bigger than 2003 to XP is pretty misinformed.

#18 Touchfuzzy

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:18 PM

My credentials are few but about as big as they come in this theatre of entertainment--more than 10 years of making RPGs and paying for all of enterbrain's products.


Are we waving our e-peens around? Oh man this is great.

I started with Super Dante RPG Maker. The translation that was done on the SNES ROM before 95 was even released. Before that I made games in ACK, before that I made games in quickBASIC. I've used every RM that ever had a EN translation fan or official, have played with the full Beta of Ace already, and am a major figure in the communities from being ever-present for the last several years.

I think RPG Maker VX Ace is worth it, and is straight up the best RM we have ever seen. It destroys every other RM in every area with the only exception being XP mapping (and even then, I don't think the gap is as big as XPers act). If that isn't worth 90 bucks, I don't know what they could do that would be.

#19 Mephistox

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:19 PM


Simple answer, don't waste your money and download it, i've never bought a rpgmaker, i have to say so.

The people that buy it, it's because they think it worth the cost.


That's the kind of debate that scares me. If you are closing your arguments with 'if you don't like it, don't buy it' then you are missing the point entirely. If it were that simple, there wouldn't be reviews for any products. What I am posting here is essentially my 'review' after having used the trial version and studied the new features thoroughly. My credentials are few but about as big as they come in this theatre of entertainment--more than 10 years of making RPGs and paying for all of enterbrain's products.

I'm just offering up my opinion as one of enterbrain's best clients and longest patriots.


I said that, because of the large amount of arguements that me and the others users gave, we don't have more words to say.

Your complains are absolutely contradictory, one side you said that the new features can be via script, Ok, fine, in the other side you said that VX add the easy chest and doors and inns. Ok, i can say that they could add that with scripting, and in the other side we said that better enterbrain put just the RGGS3 and you must be happy with that.

The economy is that way, if you don't like the price or you don't have the money, just don't buy it or download it, i'm pretty sure that enterbrain did studies of targets, markets, and all the kind of things that the enterprises do when they are creating a new software. (even more if they are japanese like american*10000).

So i'm changing my question, what did you expect from the maker?, because any feature can be added with scripts.
did you expect more graphics?, go to the internet and look there are a lot of sites with nice graphics. (closet, jamboree whatever, bunny, fairyforest....and a looong etc.).

If you have expected a powerfull system, then go to another languages or softwares, enterbrain target, as other said is: people that want to create games easily, fun and fast, amateurs and begginers, as hobby.

Or it's just a matter of price, then replace my answer here again.
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About your study of the new functions, a summary:

- Added Tilesets for each map (new in VX series, if we consider that Ace is part of the VX 'serie') improved and better than in XP.
- Stairs Tiles (New in Ace)
- Caterpillar (New in ace)
- Windowskin Tone (New in Ace)
- Added BattleBack graphics, with dual graphics even (new in ace)
- Upgraded version of Ruby is used 1.8 => 1.9
- Traits System for Actors, classes, items, weapons, armors and skills (New in Ace)
- Battle Formulas (New in Ace)
- Videos (New in Ace)
- Outline and Shadow (New in Ace)
- Audio Begin in position (New in Ace)
- More things from the Hidden Classes, look up at the help files.
- Character and Face Creator
- Native Compatible with 64bits systems.
- RGGS3 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT different from RGGS2.

RTP adds
- New BGM and ME, all in OGG and brand new.
- New Tiles. (Look and compare with VX).
- Battle Backgrounds (a lot)
- Title Sprites (a lot)
- 8 New actors sprites and faces.
- Alot of new Icons. About 100, if im not wrong.
- A few character sprites originals, others got from Famitsu Blog.

Edited by Mephistox, 22 February 2012 - 03:34 PM.

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#20 Kread-EX

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:21 PM

The leap from 2003 to XP was massive.

This, I agree with. But only because XP introduced scripts, which were absent from previous versions (and a big RTP). Otherwise, database and events were superior in 2003.

That being said, I'd like to quote something Indra said:

Later on I started developing ANYTHING for real in VX, and now, only by messing around with the ACE demo, I can say I'm in love already. Heck, now in the VX.net forums with the winter contest, having to stick to the VX program feels WEIRD after using ACE.

I believe this is important. Ace is very easy to use, whether you're on your own with events (efficient interpreter, great database) or a scripter (Ruby 1.9.2, excellent base scripts). After using it for a while, going back to VX is difficult, to say the least. Ace spoils you and makes you feel at home and improves productivity. This alone, for me, warrants pouring money into it.




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