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#21 magic2345

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 12:33 AM

Espers to raise stats? Err, I can't really remember this system in FFVI. Oh, and I laughed at the fact that no one mentioned FFVIII at all. Is it that bad?

Note: I have never played FFVII, FFVIII and whichever FF had the onion knight.

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#22 Radscythe

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 01:31 AM

FF8 I mentioned being my fav along with nine, it's interchangeable at this point.

Plus, this is about ff6, is it not?
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#23 sorata

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 02:37 AM

I think, you can't talk about certain elements of FF6 on their own: You have to see it as one experience.

The point about Kefka is, he is by far the most threatening villain I encountered in a RPG. He doesn't has a melodramatic past or other reasons for his actions expect pure madness and the desire for destruction. You could certainly argue that this is the "Muhaha, I am evil"-kind of antagonist, but Kefka is far off from the pattern "Muhaha, I could kill you now, but I will show mercy for some very stupid reason and I know that this will some day bite my right in the ass".
Kefkas simplicity is a great contrast to the (mostly) detailed described heroes, just like his and their actions. The heroes have stuff to care about, stuff to protect. Kefka has nothing and wants nothing (expect for destruction of course).

A good villian is good, not because of his tragic past (that could be something, but is not necessary), but because of his impact on the story and the heroes. And Kefka has plenty impact. ;)

#24 Kread-EX

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 03:35 AM

Well, there still one interesting thing about Kefka: he starts by being pretty much a comic relief villain and you kick his ass before his (non-surprising at all) betrayal. Basically, he becomes more powerful and dangerous during the story, in contrast with a lot of FF villains who start uber-powerful from the get-go. Too bad his backstory wasn't more exploited.

(FFT wasn't counted, I straight up think FFT is the best game that ever had Final Fantasy printed on it.)

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#25 Michael Ponder Jr

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 03:59 AM

I can name the final fantasy games i hate the most easly....
Final Fantasy 8 .. for me. had all kinds of things going for it, but when you factor in the fact that they do away with collecting currency from monsters, and the stats were so simplified.... it became one of my most hated in the series..
Final Fantasy 9 redeamed the series in my eyes.. they went back to similar things the series had in it's 2D days.
I love the music in Final Fantasy x... but.. that's all i liked about that game... X and X2 marked the end of the classic overworlds.. something i love personally.. but that's just me.. it's just how i feel..
And really every FF game after that has not interested me.. at all..

With all it's problems, i still like part 4 the most...
The games in the series i go back and play are FF1 FF2(J version) FF3(J version) FF4(FF2 in the US back in the snes days) FF5 FF6(sorry, i go by japanese release not US release) FF7 FF9...... those are the only ones i am willing to go back and play... they just.. kinda have those things i like.. special charms that the series lost...

I have a thing for knights and theves and... those kinds of fantasy elements....
Newer instalments kinda lack some kinda charm that is missing.. i'm not sure what it is... maybe a change in art style..... gameplay... design.. i'm not sure.. i just know i have no interest... the series has been lost on me..
Then again.. i rarely go nuts for a lot of new games... so could just be how much i have changed.. dunno..

I won't say FFT is a bad game.. i'm just not into tactic games all that much...that's all.

Edited by Michael Ponder Jr, 10 January 2012 - 04:02 AM.


#26 Schneider

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:17 AM

Meanaswell cover all my bases since everyone else brought up just about every other FF game, and because I'm bored.

FF1: Pretty basic (but decent) RPG for it's time, slightly D&D inspired and the ability to choose and upgrade your party was a pretty cool aspect as well. Story was straightforward, but likeable with an interesting twist. Music and graphics made excellent use of the NES hardware, I'm still impressed sometimes. I liked the Dawn of Souls remake for the bonus dungeons, but I did kind of miss the old magic system, and it was far too easy.

FF2: People seem to really hate this game, but I didn't think it was that bad. It was the first FF to have a more serious, involved storyline, and the start of when they decided to incorporate a lot of tragedy relating to the cast of playable characters as opposed to just the world in general. I guess the system wasn't the greatest, but I didn't hate it myself, and I feel the interesting characters and story made it worth my time to play. I enjoyed the Dawn of Souls remake, the bonus dungeon after beating the game was pretty challenging.

FF3: I didn't really get into this one, I've tried the original and the DS remake and by this point I'm pretty sure I had exhausted all other sources of FF (and RPGs in general), so it didn't really hook me. I mean I guess it's got a good system and game design (Dark Knight is always a plus) but I suppose by the time I had played it I was already too much of a jaded gamer to appreciate what it brought to the table.

FF4: Here's where things get interesting, I feel this is one of the best RPGs ever made, and something I use as the ideal RPG to use as a base comparison for most RPGs. It pretty much excelled in every aspect that makes an RPG good, and it's most likely the reason why a lot of aspiring RPGs felt so generic, because they tried to be what FF4 was for it's time. Looking back it might not seem like much, but having played this at the time or being able to judge a game based on when it came out really helps here, it was pretty much RPG perfection when it came out. I even like all the remakes for one reason or another, though the GBA one was especially good for me (DS is cool for augments, PSP for everything else).

FF5: Great system, not so great story. After FF4 it's still a good game but it feels like it's missing something story wise and kind of backtracks to the FF1/FF3 feel. The class system is what definitely brings this game alive though, which should be evident by how much they use similar systems in future installments (namely FFT). Music was really good too, a lot of memorable songs in this game. I never played the GBA remake, but the additions look worthy enough to try it sometime down the line.

FF6: I liked it, but I felt it was too ambitious for its own good. The systems in this game were absolutely incredible, very inspired and fun to play with, the separation of the game into two halves was also a good move. The graphics, music, and use of the SNES hardware in general were all top notch.

However, my complaint is with the story and the characters, it had a good start and then it just kind of trailed off when things were getting interesting (around the Magitek Factory). All the characters had a pretty good introduction and developed somewhat, and then they just became uninteresting and bland, like they weren't really that important or got forgotten about, and then some characters were just thrown in for no reason at all. I'm also going to complain about Kefka because everyone (not just here) seems to think "Oh well, he's an insane clown hellbent on destruction... that's about it...." is somehow the the most genius idea for a villain ever. Well, I think it's just lazy and completely uninspired, there's plenty of ways to expand on the aspect of madness or create a character that's actually fleshed out and insane at the same time. In the case of Kefka, he's pretty much a short tempered retard that's only capable of spouting annoying one-liners, with no attempt to explain anything other than "lol he's an insane clown". It's quite degrading to consider that someone like this could master magic to the extent he has, come up with a plan to obtain ultimate power, and destroy the world, considering he has all the traits of a shortsighted fool making him completely contradictory as a character. I honestly feel this villain is the way he is not because of some kind of incredible idea, but rather because they couldn't think of anything better for such an ambitious game, and just went with something convenient and made it fit, when they wanted to have something brilliant.

Never played the remake, additional content sounded cool but I really don't like playing through this game without some kind of hard mode patch.

I'll finish the rest later, already created enough of a wall of text for now and I need to finish my morning routine.

#27 A.

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:41 AM

I think:

FF4, 8, 3 (not 6 but 3), 1, 10, 11, 13, 13-2, 14 are a waste of money. 1 is in there because of no story, how ever understanding why FF 1 was created to begin with may exclude it.
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#28 Radscythe

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:50 AM

@A.
Where's 10-2 in that list? Are you saying it's better than 10? o_o

And I guess I'm the only one who loves 8, but hates 12...oh god Ashe how you screwed 12 over for me.
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#29 Lowell Richards

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:23 AM

You kids need to play the SaGa series as it is generally much better than Final Fantasy all around. as far as FF6 is concerned though the individual characters are the only thing that make the game stand out. The villain is a maniac and the gameplay mechanics leave a bad taste in my mouth. FF8 is more or less FF6 rehashed with the only modification being the Junction System being overhauled. As far as my fave final fantasies go, I'd have to say FF5 as far as the story/setting and FFX-2 for the gameplay mechanics.



I think:

FF4, 8, 3 (not 6 but 3), 1, 10, 11, 13, 13-2, 14 are a waste of money. 1 is in there because of no story, how ever understanding why FF 1 was created to begin with may exclude it.


I'm quiet certain you haven't played more than half of those, but to each his own. Most of those games have better mechanics and stories than FF6, and I found FF7 to be totally boring aside from Materia and that one event.

Edited by Lowell, 10 January 2012 - 10:27 AM.


#30 Michael Ponder Jr

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:11 AM

I like Romancing SaGa 1 2 and 3 on the snes, those rocked... in fact there are a lot of awesome RPG of the snes area that never really made it here, sadly..
Another awesome game.. to me it was awesome anyhow... was Treasure of Rudra.. the music is pretty kicking, the story is actually broke up among.. like.. 3 or 4 characters you can play as... there are way more than 4 to play with in your party.. i just mean each story has it's main character....... it has to do with the world AFTER the end.. and getting things put right again... if i remember correctly.

Edited by Michael Ponder Jr, 10 January 2012 - 11:16 AM.


#31 BigEd781

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 12:04 PM

You kids need to play the SaGa series as it is generally much better than Final Fantasy all around. as far as FF6 is concerned though the individual characters are the only thing that make the game stand out. The villain is a maniac and the gameplay mechanics leave a bad taste in my mouth. FF8 is more or less FF6 rehashed with the only modification being the Junction System being overhauled. As far as my fave final fantasies go, I'd have to say FF5 as far as the story/setting and FFX-2 for the gameplay mechanics.




I think:

FF4, 8, 3 (not 6 but 3), 1, 10, 11, 13, 13-2, 14 are a waste of money. 1 is in there because of no story, how ever understanding why FF 1 was created to begin with may exclude it.


I'm quiet certain you haven't played more than half of those, but to each his own. Most of those games have better mechanics and stories than FF6, and I found FF7 to be totally boring aside from Materia and that one event.


I am not a kid and I thought the SaGa games were terrible. I just couldn't get into them.
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#32 sorata

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 04:29 PM

I'm also going to complain about Kefka because everyone (not just here) seems to think "Oh well, he's an insane clown hellbent on destruction... that's about it...." is somehow the the most genius idea for a villain ever. Well, I think it's just lazy and completely uninspired, there's plenty of ways to expand on the aspect of madness or create a character that's actually fleshed out and insane at the same time.

But you don't need to explain everything in the smallest details to make a character memorable. You also have to ask yourself as developer, if you really want the player to emphasize with the villian in regards of "Awwww, look, he had such a tragic past, because he was abused as a child/etc."
This is something the "Dark Knight"-Joker maked Fun off with his various origin-stories about his scars: The idea that you can shrink down the madness of a person on one small simple point. But if you don't tell exactly, what happened to the villian, he has still a mystery around him.
And I prefer stories, which use additionaly my own imagination and don't explain everything.
Kefka simply doesn't support the role of bitchin' Emo-kind of villian. He's simply mad and you can never tell, what he will doing next (in game-perspective). The other characters don't have great dialogues either, so you cannot really argue that Kefkas One-Liners are a problem.

Like I said, a villian should be make an impact on the story with his actions, not with his melodramatic past or gorgeous body.

#33 Schneider

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 04:51 PM

But you don't need to explain everything in the smallest details to make a character memorable. You also have to ask yourself as developer, if you really want the player to emphasize with the villian in regards of "Awwww, look, he had such a tragic past, because he was abused as a child/etc."
This is something the "Dark Knight"-Joker maked Fun off with his various origin-stories about his scars: The idea that you can shrink down the madness of a person on one small simple point. But if you don't tell exactly, what happened to the villian, he has still a mystery around him.
And I prefer stories, which use additionaly my own imagination and don't explain everything.
Kefka simply doesn't support the role of bitchin' Emo-kind of villian. He's simply mad and you can never tell, what he will doing next (in game-perspective). The other characters don't have great dialogues either, so you cannot really argue that Kefkas One-Liners are a problem.

Like I said, a villian should be make an impact on the story with his actions, not with his melodramatic past or gorgeous body.


Well, what I'm getting at is that he was actually detrimental to the storyline as whole, nearly every part of the plot he's directly involved in has to make use of some type of plot device/hole to advance the story, and I feel it's because Kefka himself was an underdeveloped character. I'm not really saying that he needed more backstory, just better characterization in general and less contradictory personality in general. I realize he's insane, but it's kind of strange to me when he's always portrayed as short tempered and impulsive, but was somehow able to sustain a long term, meticulous plan involving the destruction of the world regardless of his nature.

#34 Pine

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:31 PM

LOL

Really guys? Someone qualified Kefka as anything above mediocre?

This is why I hate FF threads, only stupid comments ever come up.

#35 A.

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:54 PM

@radScythe - 10-2 was ok in terms of the job system, horrible for story and game play.
@lowell, I am pretty sure I have with the exception of 13-2 and the online versions (11 and 14).

-- Side note: The only saga game I liked was Sword Of Vermillion.

@pine - Kefka was a human, not some big bad ancient evil. thats what made him epic
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#36 Touchfuzzy

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:25 PM

I'm also going to complain about Kefka because everyone (not just here) seems to think "Oh well, he's an insane clown hellbent on destruction... that's about it...." is somehow the the most genius idea for a villain ever. Well, I think it's just lazy and completely uninspired, there's plenty of ways to expand on the aspect of madness or create a character that's actually fleshed out and insane at the same time.

But you don't need to explain everything in the smallest details to make a character memorable. You also have to ask yourself as developer, if you really want the player to emphasize with the villian in regards of "Awwww, look, he had such a tragic past, because he was abused as a child/etc."
This is something the "Dark Knight"-Joker maked Fun off with his various origin-stories about his scars: The idea that you can shrink down the madness of a person on one small simple point. But if you don't tell exactly, what happened to the villian, he has still a mystery around him.
And I prefer stories, which use additionaly my own imagination and don't explain everything.
Kefka simply doesn't support the role of bitchin' Emo-kind of villian. He's simply mad and you can never tell, what he will doing next (in game-perspective). The other characters don't have great dialogues either, so you cannot really argue that Kefkas One-Liners are a problem.

Like I said, a villian should be make an impact on the story with his actions, not with his melodramatic past or gorgeous body.


The Joker works because of the compare/contrast of him vs Batman. Kefka doesn't have that. He doesn't play off of any of the heros at all. He just is.

Also, you talk about his impact on the story, but completely ignore the fact that ANY VILLAIN PUT IN THE SAME SPOT WOULD HAVE MEANT THE SAME THING IN THE STORY. He isn't attached to the plot at all. His reason to be there is that they needed a villain. You sound like the people who say KEFKA IS THE BEST CAUSE HE DESTROYED THE WORLD GUYS. Man, I need to go write me a villain that destroys a universe, HE WOULD BE AWESOME. (actually, in that case Jenova is a better villain than Kefka, as it has eaten several planets already before the beginning of 7).

I'll go back to another villain from Final Fantasy who isn't "MELODRAMATIC PAST" or "BEAUTIFUL BODY" who does exactly what Kefka tries to do (be really evil, really crazy, and super powerful), but does it BETTER. You only have to go back one game, but we didn't get it in the US. Exdeath of Final Fantasy V. Why was he better? Because he actually was tied into the plot. His background wasn't melodramatic, he was just a ton of evil spirits bound into a tree until it became sentient. But his desires were hooked into the plot and lore of the world. He wasn't pretty... he was a goddamned tree.

So please go ahead and put up a few more strawmen.
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#37 Lowell Richards

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:33 PM

@radScythe - 10-2 was ok in terms of the job system, horrible for story and game play.
@lowell, I am pretty sure I have with the exception of 13-2 and the online versions (11 and 14).

-- Side note: The only saga game I liked was Sword Of Vermillion.

@pine - Kefka was a human, not some big bad ancient evil. thats what made him epic


Sword of Vermillion isn't a SaGa game, heck it's not even a Square game.
Romancing SaGa, SaGa Frontier, and the SaGa games for Gameboy/DS (only SaGa 2/3 are on the DS)
the games aren't bad at all, it's more or less an open ended rpg without a linear story in most cases (except the DS games in my experience).

Edited by Lowell, 10 January 2012 - 11:35 PM.


#38 A.

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:08 AM

I thought we were talking about the console >_<
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#39 Michael Ponder Jr

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 04:44 AM


@radScythe - 10-2 was ok in terms of the job system, horrible for story and game play.
@lowell, I am pretty sure I have with the exception of 13-2 and the online versions (11 and 14).

-- Side note: The only saga game I liked was Sword Of Vermillion.

@pine - Kefka was a human, not some big bad ancient evil. thats what made him epic


Sword of Vermillion isn't a SaGa game, heck it's not even a Square game.
Romancing SaGa, SaGa Frontier, and the SaGa games for Gameboy/DS (only SaGa 2/3 are on the DS)
the games aren't bad at all, it's more or less an open ended rpg without a linear story in most cases (except the DS games in my experience).


Lol, someone confused SEGA with SaGa?
I don't think that's the first time that's happen.

#40 sorata

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 05:03 AM

I'll go back to another villain from Final Fantasy who isn't "MELODRAMATIC PAST" or "BEAUTIFUL BODY" who does exactly what Kefka tries to do (be really evil, really crazy, and super powerful), but does it BETTER. You only have to go back one game, but we didn't get it in the US. Exdeath of Final Fantasy V. Why was he better? Because he actually was tied into the plot. His background wasn't melodramatic, he was just a ton of evil spirits bound into a tree until it became sentient. But his desires were hooked into the plot and lore of the world. He wasn't pretty... he was a goddamned tree.

Of course. The best example of a stereotypic-villian (with localization error for his name), who has less a reason for his doings than an insane clown, is far better. Some evil spirits in a tree want to destroy everything, because... they're... evil. Woah! That's a genius idea! :D

I don't say that Kefka is overall the best, but for myself he is the most effective villian by far. That's my opinion. If you don't have to agree to it or change your own, but please don't rank your own opinion as the only solid one (this counts for everyone else). Thanks.

And for the destruction of the world: I don't think that Kefka had really planned that out either. Why do we even have to search. That's so menacing about him. He doesn't plot everything great, he just uses opportunities, if they occur, just to have his own "fun".
But if you prefer the warlock, who sits in his place and is plotting the entire game his evil scheme instead of just killing the heroes, go ahead.
But I don't see the great appeal of that kind of villian.




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